Ever since Jack Nicholson donned the Joker’s infamous clown makeup in 1989’s Batman, every ensuing actor who stepped into the role has gone to such immersive lengths that the character himself has become akin to Shakespearean folklore. Is Heath Ledger’s Joker the best performance ever done on screen? Perhaps. Is Jared Leto’s Joker the worst performance ever done on screen? An even stronger perhaps. But where Phoenix differs from all his predecessors is that unlike the role of the adrenalised, commanding mastermind fitted with gunpowder and gasoline, Joaquin embodied the purposeless, rage filled nobody. Point being that 16 years after The Dark Knight, everybody is still trying to imitate Heath Ledger; nobody wants to be Joaquin. And I think that’s the point. As a certain psychologist once said, “If you think strong men are dangerous, wait until you see what weak men are capable of.”
Joaquin Phoenix reprises his Oscar winning role as Arthur Fleck, aka Joker, in the upcoming Joker: Folie à Deux which premieres on October 3, 2024. We caught up with the legendary actor ahead of its release to discuss Ozzy Osbourne, Lady Gaga, and, naturally, dancing.
Esquire: When did you and Todd Phillips start talking about a sequel to Joker?
Joaquin Phoenix: Actually pretty early on. I would say halfway through shooting the first one. And we certainly did not go into that movie thinking of a sequel, but I think the world became so rich and the characters seemed like there were so many possibilities, so many places we could go with the character, and I think we started talking about what might happen next. And sometimes it was in jest, and we would just come up with ideas that would make us laugh, and then at times there were things that we discussed more in earnest. But I think one thing that we started talking about, or one of the things that I remember that resonated most, was this idea of, what do you do when you get tired of performing, of being this character that you’ve created?
And we talked a little bit about a band like Kiss or any number of theatrical bands that at some point, they’re touring for years, and they have to keep up this persona, or like Ozzy Osbourne, and what happens when they just want to be home and be quiet and they don’t want to play that character anymore? And what happens when their romantic partner fell in love with the character more than them? And that was one of the first things that I remember talking with Todd about, getting really excited about that idea. That was probably midway through Joker.
Esquire: How did it feel then once you got to this next phase? How did it feel to take on this next chapter for Arthur?
Joaquin Phoenix: Well, I felt everything. There was a part of me that was reluctant. There was something so special about the first experience and I didn’t want to taint that in any way, but I also loved the idea of a challenge, the idea of continuing the story but finding different tones to play with. And we started talking about music and the idea of performance really around the time of the… I don’t even know if the movie had been released yet or if it had just been released, but we started talking about performance, literally a show, like a live show. There was still a lot more to explore, I thought, with the character. I didn’t want to give it up. And so I was excited, and I was nervous, and everything one could feel, I think.
Esquire: This is your second time working with Todd. How would you describe your partnership?
Joaquin Phoenix: For me, it’s very fulfilling. Sometimes you just want to enjoy somebody’s company, that feels really important, and you want to feel that they challenge you. For me, what I’m looking for in a director is somebody that is spontaneous and can guide me if we decide to veer off for some takes and try something new, that there’s a director that can think quickly and solve problems in the moment, and Todd is just one of the quickest minds I’ve ever worked with. He’s never ever failed me. At any moment if I said, “Oh, is there a line that I could say that would be like this?” he’ll come back with three or four lines that are just funny and spot-on and great, and perfect for the moment.
So, that feels really important for me, particularly with this film. I think this character in this film, it’s so alive, and so Todd and Scott [Silver] provided this amazing script that was very rich and smart and interesting and funny and heartfelt. And then on top of that, Todd is able to spontaneously discover new things in the moment. And so it just felt like it was really alive in a way, and it’s rare to work with somebody that can work like that.
Esquire: Was there anything that you found different about his approach to this film from the first one?
Joaquin Phoenix: It’s bigger, there’s a lot more going on. But essentially, it didn’t feel that different. Our process of working together didn’t feel different, and so we still maintained the relationship I think that we had. And this intimacy that we had on the first film…it felt small in a way, the production in some ways, on the first one, and that wasn’t lost even though this movie got bigger.
Question: Todd has described Arthur has having music in him. What does that mean?
Joaquin Phoenix: It’s something that he always talked about in the first film, and it’s funny because there were these sequences in the first film—there was the dance, he gets on the stairs at the end, that was written into it. But then we discovered these other moments that weren’t written in there because we had this feeling that there’s something about the way that Arthur and Joker move in the world, really more Joker, that feels musical in a way. There’s something that is oddly graceful about him at times. There’s some kind of rhythm that is motivating his movements. So, it’s something that I think was partially in the script, and then we discovered more as we were shooting. And I think we even had… There were some moments where I’m singing in the first one that I don’t remember, but I don’t think was scripted, or maybe some were.
So, I think the music has always been a part of him. It’s maybe a place that takes him back. There’s just a kind of nostalgia to some of the music that he listens to. And I think in the first one, we saw the emergence of Joker through music and the music in his head. When Joker first kind of starts materialising, if you will, it’s to that great Hildur [Guđnadóttir] score, and we realise that this is the music in his head and how he’s moving to it. And then in the music and the dance sequence at the end on the stairs, I think this time we’re seeing both the music that’s in Arthur as well as the music that’s in Joker. I think part of this is seeing, what is the overlap, and is there an overlap, and where do those two sides of his personality meet? And a lot of that I think is through the music that he hears in his head.
Esquire: And Hildur Guđnadóttir returns for the score – how was that?
Joaquin Phoenix: Yes. Something we talked about was even trying to find a way to at times blend Hildur’s music, the compositions and her performances, with some of the songs that were being performed, or in some of the moments of dance. For instance, there’s a song, “When You’re Smiling”… We tried a bunch of different songs just for fun, and it was something that we found and I played it for Todd and he liked it. And we said, “Oh, let’s try it for this scene. We’ll do a couple takes with it and some without it.” And then they layered in Hildur’s score with it, and it was just a very interesting mashup of these two different styles of music, which I think captures the state of mind of Arthur/Joker. So, Hildur’s music is obviously a huge part of the first film, and I was really happy that she continues to be such a presence in this film as well.
Esquire: You do a fair bit of dancing, including tap dancing, in this film. How was it rehearsing for those scenes? Did you enjoy it?
Joaquin Phoenix: It’s funny, that was something that… I talked about doing tap on the first movie because there was a moment in the first film where I come onto “The Murray Franklin Show” and I do this little spin thing that I guess is some kind of tap move or something that Michael Arnold (choreographer) pointed out. I didn’t even really know what I was doing. And so that was something we talked about, “Oh, if we do another film, I’d love for there to be some tap in it,” thinking that it was something that I would be able to do. But it’s so difficult. You’re moving your feet in ways that just aren’t natural when you’re in your late 40s. I’m being sarcastic and saying I didn’t enjoy it, I did, but I found it very challenging.
But working with Michael, I have such a respect for him as a dancer and a choreographer, and he really understands the character, the characters, in this case. And I was really excited to go back into dance with him and discover something new. We worked quite a bit on tapping, and it’s crazy because it’s like, what? I dance for like 30 seconds in the film? I don’t even know how long we worked on that, it was so long. But just to get the most simple steps, at least for me, took a long time. It’s always enjoyable to challenge yourself and to try and achieve something that seems impossible, or at least it feels impossible. It’s one of those things that’s hard to explain to somebody, because if they see a simple dance move, a simple tap move, they go like, “Oh, that’s really cool. It looks like it’s simple and easy.” And you’re like, “Do you have any idea how hard that was?” [LAUGHS]
Esquire: Todd loves comedians, or comedic actors. His casting choices are always interesting because they’re always unexpected. For example, Steve Coogan plays Arthur’s interviewer, Paddy Myers.
Joaquin Phoenix: Well, it’s funny about Steve Coogan, because Todd and I, we were talking about different actors and for some reason, as I remember it, Steve just popped into my head. I don’t know why, except I’ve always liked him. And I said, “What about Steve?” And Todd said, “Oh, Scott Silver really liked Steve and was thinking about Steve for this role also, and I’ve actually been thinking about him and I’ve talked about him.” It just seemed one of those serendipitous moments where we all were thinking who might be an interesting casting choice and somebody that would be great.
So, then Steve came in, literally flew in from England, and then the next day was shooting. He did a test the night that he arrived, and the next day was shooting, and didn’t falter for a second, has all these amazing, subtle, brilliant little ways of speaking and we were amazed by him. It was one of those moments where I wanted to just sit back and be able to watch him and not be in the scene, because I just thought what he was doing was so great. So it was amazing to work with him.
Esquire: Finally, what impressed you the most about Lady Gaga?
Joaquin Phoenix: Oh man, so much, but I will tell you, I have to say that I was impressed by how committed and hardworking and approachable and accessible she was. Maybe part of that initially was just because of my own preconceived ideas of what a superstar must be like, because she’s like a f*cking proper superstar, but then I realised even compared to many actors that I’ve worked with that aren’t stars, not just superstars, the level of commitment that she had. She would go to set in the morning and she would just stay on set. There would be just a little broom closet room with some chairs in there and she would just be in there, and she’d be either looking at the script or willing to talk about anything about the scenes. And I think Todd and I certainly like to spend a lot of time and like to try new things and different things, and not everybody’s able to do that or wants to do it, and I was just amazed at how flexible she was, how quick she was to pivot from maybe what she thought a scene might be to trying something new. And so that was just incredible to me, the kind of actor that I want to work with. And she would never give up. And no matter what kind of variation Todd would want to try, she would just go like, “Okay, yeah,” and then she would just try something new. There were moments that just felt really authentic. I remember early on doing a scene and we shot my closeup first, and then we turned around on hers and she was so good and so honest, and I was like, “Todd, we have to re-shoot mine because now I see what I should be doing.” So, she was really impressive.
Joker: Folie à Deux releases in theatres on October 3, 2024.
